Hailey: Okay. Perfect. All right. I'll just get into the questions then. I think I sent them to you so you can follow along as well. But first, how do you integrate cultural practices and traditions into your healing approaches?

Interviewee: Yeah, so maybe to start, I'll tell you a little bit about my role. And that'll also give contact to the answers to the question. So, you know, as you know, my name is Interviewee, and I use she and her pronouns. And I work in the Faculty of Medicine, but I actually work in the Dean's Office. I'm an equity advisor. I work in the Office of Respectful Environment, Diversity, Equity and Inclusion. So basically what my role entails is I support the strategic goals of the Faculty of Medicine in implementing equity, diversity, inclusion and respectful environment goals. Sorry, my cat's crying at me. So if you hear that, I apologize. Come here. Come here. Yeah, come me out. Yeah. Why don't you come say hi? And so basically, you know, my role is that I support clinical faculty that could be doctors, I support learners, so people who are going into or are in med school, or they're doing some sort of health care profession, as well as staff and administration. So I kind of support everyone across the Faculty of Medicine. So some of my answers to these questions are a little bit less on the clinical side and more about how do I support other people in doing that? Does that make sense? Okay, so if you need any clarification, or you're curious about something that I said, please feel free to ask a follow up question. So to answer your question about how I integrate cultural practices and traditions into my healing approaches, you know, I think for the most part, the goal of the work that I do in particular is around, how do we ensure that everything we're doing from the learners that we're supporting, from the colleagues that we're in community with, and we're working with, to the patients and community that we support, how do we ensure that there's a lens of equity, diversity, inclusion, as well as decolonization? There is a big component, Faculty of Medicine has a commitment towards truth and reconciliation in our mandate. So there's a major foundation of our work is around that. And so for me personally, that means ensuring that the folks that we come in contact with, understand what that means in their practices. So whether it's supporting Indigenous students, or marginalized students, or dealing with communities that might have dealt with various forms of trauma, whether it's in their kind of intergenerational and personal life, or kind of broader traumas related to oppression, then we basically support people working through what are some skills, what are some tools that you can use to do that. So for me, I'm really, I've been a lot more into trauma informed practice and leadership as of recent, and I've been developing a lot of education around that. So teaching people understanding how does trauma show up? What does it look like? And the many ways that that we might interact with that in our daily lives, as practitioners, as healthcare providers, as educators, and even within ourselves, right? Like we all have to deal with, with our own forms of trauma, and how that shows up for us. And so how do we ensure that we have a deep understanding of, of what that looks like for ourselves, and with the communities that we serve? Does that does that make sense?

Hailey: Yeah. I wanted to ask a question that's not actually written on there, but I think is kind of important for context. Just like what obstacles like in your experience, to people like marginalized people, perhaps, and like, people like with trauma, for example, like face in receiving care, or like, in healthcare.

Interviewee: Yeah, I think one of the major issues is that we are navigating systems that have been built on the exclusion and oppression of some over others. And so I think about people accessing healthcare, simple, you know, simple checkups, or going to the hospital, and how every, you know, when you're taught as a doctor, for example, do no harm, that is the, you know, the slogan of being a doctor. How is it that our biases and our systems still contribute to the harm of some disproportionately, right? So I think about Indigenous folks not getting the same access to healthcare. And when, and of course, we've read in the news of many people being ignored, being discriminated against, even in recent years, right?

And so despite the fact that as healthcare professionals, you're taught to care for everyone, no matter what, do no harm, we're still navigating these systems that were built upon this idea that some are more worthy of care than others. And so the ways in which that shows up in our work can be a massive barrier. And I think that the other layer of that is I think there's many people who are trying to challenge and change those systems. And yet those systems are built so strongly on those principles of colonization, and imperialism, and all those other kind of isms, you know, I think of sexism, racism, that it's hard to dismantle that, because we don't actually know what we can put in place to replace it yet. And so I think there's this layer of the folks trying to receive care, and then there's also the layer of people trying to change it, and the ways that it's really challenging to do that. Of course, part of my job is to address that. And so the only, you know, I think a lot about the folks who've come before me that, you know, conversations that I'm having, conversations me and you are having, wouldn't have been possible 20 years ago or 30 years ago. And so what is the work that's been put in place up to this point that now we can kind of carry that baton and, you know, you as a future, you know, professional, whether it's in healthcare or something else, you know, you also have a better understanding and hopefully a better ability to speak about these things and implement change. And so, you know, I think the barriers being that these systems are so deeply entrenched in history and context, and we don't even know how far those routes go. And the flip side of that is like, you know, we are taking steps forward, because we're able to have these conversations. And sometimes as folks in these spaces, you have to also say, yeah, maybe I won't dismantle healthcare, the healthcare system as a whole, but I can do my part in chipping away so that future generations have a better shot of creating something better. 

Hailey: Yeah, I've noticed in my own school community that like, we don't really have these conversations if they don't like, pertain to us specifically. So like, it's not brought up. So it's never like a dress. And like, nobody's aware of that. So that's kind of partly why I'm doing this, because I hope to like share with my school community. 

Interviewee: Yeah, that's awesome.

Hailey: Yeah. I think like, our school is trying to make a push for more EDI. Yeah. It's been a rocky process as someone in EDI leadership, as I think it's not really widely accepted by the student body and the parents especially. 

Interviewee: So it takes time. You keep pushing and you keep fighting for it, you know, incremental change, right? 

Hailey: Yeah. That's good to remember, we don't plan on stopping. Okay. Then just as a follow up question to asking about, like trauma-informed care, because you said you were like, getting into that. How do you recognize signs of trauma in clients or community members or like people?

Interviewee: You know, I think for me, considering that I'm not, I'm not a doctor, I'm not trained in healthcare provision. My goal when I'm supporting people and I'm going in into community is not to necessarily point to something and say, Hey, that's a sign of trauma. You have trauma. My goal of it is how can I be proactive in my approach to supporting folks that acknowledges that there's many different ways that trauma shows up for people. 

Hailey: So I think about, you know, an inclusive practice in a meeting, for example, is instead of the person who has the most power in the room, let's say it's your, you know, your boss or someone, your teacher, someone who holds a lot of power in the room. If there's a question and that person answers it every single time first, then those with least power in the room can kind of feel scared or feel like they don't have an opportunity to speak. And so how do you recognize that power structures or ways that we're raised or traumas in our life can contribute to someone not speaking up? 

Interviewee: Well, in my practice, I say, well, in a meeting, we should have the ability for everyone to speak and take an opportunity for people to speak first. So that way we can hear from folks who don't necessarily have the opportunity to speak up in class or in a meeting. So how can we ensure that that process is respected and that people feel heard and at the table rather than excluded? The other piece I would say is, you know, I think we know in a trauma-informed lens that there are certain, you know, behaviors that may or may not show up in trauma for ourselves. For example, fight or flight, so wanting to, you know, getting really angry or wanting to flee a situation. We also have freeze and fawn. So freeze being, you know, you go all numb, you don't feel good, you dissociate, fawn, kind of like people-pleasing, like whatever you say, I'll do it as long as I'm not, you know, in trouble. So how do we ensure when, you know, knowing that those things might show up in a space, because we don't know what people's traumas are, how do we ensure that we can put things in place so that A, we can address it if it comes up, or B, it won't come up because someone is able to regulate themselves better in a space because they don't feel triggered or they feel more supported in whatever that space might be. 

Hailey: Do you, you know... I know there's been a lot of events occuring lately that could be triggering, like, environmental events, or news stories. Many reports coming out, and headlines like, you know, the unmarked graves found in Kamloops and I'm thinking that might affect people in certain ways. Do you like, have a way of, I don't know, checking in with them and seeing if they require like extra support?

Interviewee: You know, I think something that's really important is that community and the relationships we build. You can't do the work that I do without relationships. I often say relationships are the capital in which I do my work because I actually, I could go into a space and say, you know, do this, do that, but if someone doesn't want to do it, they, I really don't have a lot of jurisdiction to force them to. So it's so important to build those relationships and build that trust. And part of that is creating affinity spaces, you know, for racialized folks or folks who are experiencing marginalization in the Faculty of Medicine or out in their work. It's also about kind of creating spaces of, you know, community of practice. So someone could be in physiotherapy, someone could be in family medicine, someone could be in, you know, radiology, whatever, and bringing them together and saying, you work very in very isolated spaces, but you're actually doing really similar work. So how can we build a community where you all can talk about the hard things and work through those and learn from each other? So that way you don't feel so alone in this. And I think it comes up a lot because the people who are mainly doing this work are the people who are most impacted by it. So it's not that surprising that in this work, the folks that are, you know, having these hard conversations and wanting to make the world better are also the people who are, you know, have experienced things like racism or have experienced, you know, sexism in the workplace or transphobia. So I think it's, you know, it's really important to have those relationships, to have that community so that when tough things happen, there is already that community network to lean on and provide support. But I think on an individual basis, you know, the Faculty of Medicine is 20,000 people. So certainly I wouldn't be able to reach out to everyone individually and say, you know, how are you doing?

Hailey: But there's always that network there, right? I think a support network.

Interviewee: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Hailey: Next question. What strategies do you use to address cultural safety and humility in your organization and like to create empowering environments? 

Interviewee: Yeah, I mean, a big part of the work that I do is education. So I do workshops around decolonization and I do workshops around trauma-informed practices and workshops on, you know, how to bring in inclusive practices into the space that folks are working in. And so for me in particular, that's a big part of the work that I do is ensuring that people have the skill sets that they need to be able to think about cultural safety and humility. Another aspect of that work is also advising on projects that people are doing. There's a really fabulous doctor and she's doing this really massive project, but basically all of the case studies that medical students go through in their training, she's going through all of that and making sure that there's an equity lens in every single one of them. So, you know, if every case study is about a male, you know, white patient, how can we make that, you know, a trans racialized patient and what does that look like and how is that different in the case study so that people have variation in how they treat and support their patients? And so I have done some advising on that as well. So, you know, it's pretty fulsome, the work that we do around cultural safety and humility. I think particularly where I come in is around that capacity building. So oftentimes folks will come to us and say, you know, I really want to make sure that this space is appropriate and is welcoming and supportive of Indigenous doctors and Indigenous healthcare providers. And, you know, can you help us think about how to implement these strategies that we want to put in place? So it's really about, you know, where are there long-term things we can support them with, but also what is the low-hanging fruit? Yeah, instead of assuming everyone's gender, for example, which can be really triggering if you're a trans person and people keep misgendering you, how can we ensure that we have a practice of allowing people to state their pronouns that they prefer or that they use and also not making that mandatory if that doesn't feel good either, right? Allowing space and connection in that.

Hailey: Mm-hmm. I'm not sure if you directly deal with this, but I've heard that there's also with  databases or precedents or  you know research, a lot of times, they don't sample enough or for example a group of people who might react differently to certain treatments or their own issues associated. Do you deal with that sort of thing as well?

Interviewee: So for the most part, we don't. There is an office in the university who does work with demographic data, so, I mean, that would be where folks doing that kind of research would go. We have advised on.

Hailey: do you use surveys or how do you ensure that we're casting a wide enough net to be able to attract diverse voices in that research, but specifically how to collect that type of data sits with a different office?

Interviewee: how to collect that type of data sits with a different office within our university who specifically deals with, you know, the ethics side of it as well as the legal side of it because there's a lot of legal implications to collecting certain types of data as well. But yeah, it's a really good question. It's also a huge issue. We know a lot of medical research is done primarily on cisgender men and we apply that to, you know, people with, you know, female anatomy, which doesn't always work, right? So, you know, it is a big issue around how do we ensure that our research is also bringing in diverse voices so that we're not causing further harm.

Hailey: Okay, well, I mean, I'm assuming you work within the faculty of medicine mostly, but how do you collaborate with other organizations or agencies to do a YouTube or?

Interviewee: Mm-hmm, yeah. So, last, in February, we did a collaborative event with Vancouver Coastal Health for Black History Month and specifically the theme was on Black excellence in BC healthcare. So, we brought in some speakers who are all identified as Black who are working in healthcare in one form or another to kind of talk about what, you know, what is the importance of Black excellence and why is it important that we're thinking about this in BC and whether it's as a healthcare provider or as an educator or administrator that this is a topic that is still really important in, and, you know, not just because we're past, you know, 2020 and, you know, we've kind of had a long, you know, four years of racial reckoning doesn't mean that it's time to move on from the fact that these topics are still really important. So, you know, for the most part, I think the collaboration that I do personally outside of the organization or outside of UBC is particularly around education and broad events. I think the Black excellence event had, you know, 400 people attend live and it was recorded and posted online. 

Hailey: So then many more people can watch after, but, you know, that's an audience across BC that wouldn't, you know, people up in Prince George or on the island might not be able to travel to attend. And so how can we collaborate with different organizations to build awareness and build capacity to think about and talk about these things on a wider scale? What community resources are available for those with trauma or say those are who are related to, survivors of residential school, say, they're intergenerational trauma? 

Interviewee: Yeah, I mean, I can only really speak to, internally, to the Faculty of Medicine. I think there's many community organizations, you know, Indian Residential School Society does a lot of incredible work, you know, across Canada, across Turtle Island to support residential school survivors. I have good friends who work in sexual assault care and I know that there's many organizations associated with that. Same with safe injection sites. So I think community-based, there are a lot, there needs to be more. There's not enough funding. There's not enough resources or support. And, you know, we always could do better because I think a mass amount of some of the issues we see in society come down to trauma and, you know, the outcomes of capitalism being that people can't afford to live and to survive and thrive in, you know, this community. And so certainly there's a lot more to do. Internally, resources, you know, our undergraduate medical education program just hired two new counselors, one with a specific focus on Indigenous learners, one with a specific focus on Black learners. So there's counseling services around that. The university as a whole has counseling services. My office in particular, we have a learner's mistreatment branch to it. So what that basically means is if you're a student slash learner and you feel like you're being mistreated, you can come to our office and we can point you in the right direction, either solve it internally or if it's something to do with, you know, sexual misconduct, racism or something else, some other discrimination and harassment, we can connect you to the appropriate resources within the university. So, I mean, that's a little bit of it. And then from staff and faculty, there's the faculty association and then staff have various associations and unions that also provide various resources and support. So, I mean, it's not very centralized. So I know that's kind of an unsatisfying answer. But certainly, if folks are experiencing trauma or they're experiencing, you know, hardship in the workplace, there are resources available to them. Whether those resources feel suitable or are enough is another question. And I don't really know the answer to that. 

Hailey: All right. Thank you for that. And then I want to present my art kind of in a storytelling way. So I was wondering, can you share an individual story of maybe healing resilience like within your organization, maybe like an Indigenous physician, for example, if you know of one?

Interviewee: Oh, okay. Yeah, I mean, I feel like, you know, a lot of stories are not my stories to tell. And that's certainly a consent process that I try and follow a trauma informed process I try to follow. I think, you know, maybe not on an individual level, but a little broader level, I think about the work of, you know, the folks who've been doing really incredible work around health care and in the Faculty of Medicine, we have these things called the Indigenous Speaker series, and I'm just going to look it up for you so you could watch some. But they're all prerecorded. So you can watch as many or as little as you want. But these are basically my colleague from he's the director of Indigenous engagement. He basically has a conversation with people who with Indigenous folks across Canada who are doing work around decolonization and trauma informed practice and supporting Indigenous community, whether it's within health care or health care adjacent field. So, I mean, there's many, many stories out there. And I don't think you have to look far. But I would not want to repeat someone else's story for them. So I really encourage you to watch, you know, pick one or two or whatever feels good to watch and think about. What I will say maybe from a broader standpoint is there's people doing really, really incredible work across UBC, people who've been doing it for a long time and who've done it through experiencing things like racism and other types of discrimination and harassment and who've really stuck to it and have been mentors for people and supports for people. And, you know, I think when you're experiencing trauma and when you're experiencing like oppression, it can be really lonely. And I think we don't talk enough about the ways in which that in itself can be really traumatizing and can cause, you know, issues within our body. You know, we hold that deep in our bodies. So how is it that we can basically take that and create community to be able to process, whether it's communal joy or communal grief or just communal, you know, dealing with some of the crap that you have to deal with in a regular institution? How do you find community and people around you to support you with that?

Hailey: Okay, I'll definitely look at that.

Interviewee: yeah, please. They're really fabulous. And Derek is such a powerful speaker and brings in just like very, very cool folks to talk to these sort of subjects. So I think you'll like it. 

Hailey: Okay. You mentioned like there are some people at UBC that you know, have fun experiences with this. Do you think you could give me some of their emails? And I could ask if they'd be willing to share a little bit of their experiences, if they feel comfortable being healthcare providers talking about it? Yeah. Or someone who's directly, you know, had like experiences with trauma informed care and other treating people or having experienced it.

Interviewee: I'm just seeing if there's a recording of this really fabulous talk that a doctor that I work with just did, trauma informed- Let me just see. All right. I'm going to have to look through my emails to see if I can find the recording, but that might be a good place to start. I think the one thing I would say is that, you know, even I have a hard time getting a hold of doctors because they're kind of, you know, they're busy on their clinicals, you know, and then they're also working for the university. So, you know, I'm happy to send you a list of some folks to reach out to, but certainly, you know, just be prepared that they might not respond. And that's, it's nothing against you or your research, but very much just based on the fact that they're hot commodities around here. 

Hailey: So. Yeah, I've just been looking for people I could interview to be best informed. And I've already emailed a lot of people, but it's difficult to find people's addresses that aren't, you know, just an info email. 

Interviewee: Yeah. I think the problem is, is not just getting the contact. It's just once you have it, that a lot of people just don't have the time. 

Hailey: And it's, it's really, and I think that's also what's kind of hard is trauma-informed practices and this lens and framework of thinking and doing this work is so important. And it's an area where people are still developing, like that we need more people who have this framework and lens to their work. So I think it speaks to the need to have more education and support around it. If you could just, I don't know, whenever your earliest convenience, maybe, I'll send you an email with some, with some info. That'd be perfect. Also, just kind of on the topic of when you were talking about how if somebody's having challenges or experience discrimination within the school that they could come to you or report it. You know, there's often a stigma to that. And I know a lot of people fear backlash, it's kind of hard being vulnerable that. How do you, I don't know, ensure that people are comfortable doing so and that doing so and have, you know, repercussions on their career, for example?

Interviewee: Well, you know, UBC has a retaliation policy. We actually have a whole office, the investigations office, and you know, part of their job is to kind of, when there's a formal complaint, discern what's happened and kind of deal with it according to the policy. I mean, the problem with retaliation and why I think it's so scary for people to report is that it's hard to prove in many ways. Like, oh, I didn't get that promotion. Is it because I, you know, spoke out against this mistreatment or is it because I don't have the skill set? Like it's sometimes you just don't know. Or why did I get a B and not an A? Is it because of this, right? Like there's, it's sometimes really challenging to prove when retaliation happens. So I think, you know, we have a really robust team in the investigations office who do this and they're very skilled in it and it's a really tricky thing to go through. And I think a lot of people don't want to go through that. And so part of our learner mistreatment process is that someone could either report confidentially. So, you know, we won't say who it is. You can come talk to us or anonymously. We don't even know who you are. When you report confidentially, you have options. We can provide you advice on where to go, what to do, if you want to report, if you don't want to report, fine. Anonymous because we don't even know who that is. We can't really provide advice because we don't know where it came from, right? So there are options for people to report things and to go down different routes. I think ultimately, you know, what someone chooses is their preference. What they're most comfortable with will vary. The main thing that I think is important in my own role is to ensure that people have as much information as they need to make an informed decision about how they want to move forward, right? The fact is, is that there's policies and guidelines and laws in place and there's things that we can guarantee and things we can't guarantee, right? Like if you complain about your professor mistreating you and you want that professor to be fired because it's been so, you know, terrible what they've done, I couldn't, I couldn't guarantee that that's gonna happen, right? That's, I couldn't do that. But what I could say is, you know, here are your options for if you want to report, this is how the route it goes, and then there's all these options about how they deal with it. And some of those options might be more satisfying than others, but these are, these are kind of what it, this is what it looks like. And so I think what's important is when someone has experienced immense amount of trauma, part of being trauma-informed is being consent-based and being consent-based means prior and informed consent and saying, you know, we're not going to do anything without your okay, without you being comfortable with it. And here, here's what you need to know to make that decision. And even if I don't agree with the decision, it, that's not actually up to me, right? So I think it's just important to give people in those positions where they felt like their power has been taken away in the trauma, to also give them back some power and to make sure that they're the drivers in that situation. 

Hailey: I like that kind of philosophy. Okay. This is kind of the last question or sub question. How do you collect feedback from your clients or community members about their experiences? And what insights have you gained, how does that inform your ongoing? 

Interviewee: Yeah, you know, I think, you know, like I said earlier, relationships are really the foundation in which we work. Like we can't do this work without relationships. And so a big part of understanding what's happening and having our finger on the pulse of the climate and what's going on is by building those relationships. So people will tell us what's going on and then we can create action around it. That's kind of an informal way. A formal way is the university has many surveys. We have the workplace satisfaction survey. We have, you know, student evaluations. We have, we've had listening sessions over the past couple of years regarding various forms of, you know, discrimination, harassment, whether it's, you know, the anti-racism task force, whether it's the disability task force, the gender diversity and two-spirit task force. You know, we have these spaces where people with lived experience have been able to kind of create consultation spaces to be able to kind of check in and see how things are going and to hopefully influence policy change or process change. I think one of the hard parts though is I think so often in academia, we're really, really good at talking and we're really good at giving feedback, but we're not as good at like, you know, implementing that change. So it's, I think receiving feedback seems to not be the problem. It's the, what do you do with that feedback? I think so often becomes really challenging and that's kind of where I come in, right? If, you know, if a unit says, you know, a colleague or a student has said that something we're doing is perpetuating racism, but we don't know what to do about it, then that's where I come in and say, okay, well, let's look at, you know, let's look at everything and see how it's going and let's create some change to address that issue. 

Hailey: So. Let's see. Okay. I'm just looking. Okay. That was kind of my last question. Yeah, thank you so much for answering the questions and helping out with this. It was really informative and I really appreciate you taking the time to be here. 

Interviewee: Yeah. Thank you so much for reaching out and, you know, I think, I know you have your kind of research process out, like outlined and everything, but just because I know interviewing, you know, doctors and other busy folks can be really challenging. I would really encourage you also to watch some of the videos that you can, and I'm going to send you the ready, so the office that I work for, their website, and there's kind of all these, sorry, it starts with us, there's all these recordings and stuff that you could watch from previous sessions. And yeah, just thinking about different ways of getting that narrative and that storytelling that you're so interested in.

Hailey: I think what you're talking about is really important. And I think the narratives behind it are such a powerful way to learn.

Interviewee:  So some of the narratives you can find on both the website that I shared with you, the Indigenous Speaker Series, and it starts with us. So please feel free to go through there as well and take what, it's public property, so take whatever you want from that. And in the meantime, I'll see if I can find any doctors who might be willing to meet with you and take some time.

Hailey: Also, since my project, I was hoping to make some art with it because I feel like that's a pretty effective way. And I think technically I'll be fine with drawing, but I'm not sure from a creative perspective how I should come at it. Do you think I should, I don't know, reach out to some artists as well? 

Interviewee: And I don't know to- Interesting. Maybe. You know where I might start is I might start looking, are there spaces where they're already talking about trauma through art? Like I know the Museum of Anthropology at UBC just reopened after being renovated. I think a couple of years back, I went to a show. Gosh, where was that show? It was in Chinatown, and it was about revitalizing Chinatown and the history of that place. And I think the way we talk about trauma and we talk about community, it can be really diverse in the way that you approach that. And so maybe looking at how other people talk about community and dealing with those issues might be a good place to start. And then from there, once you have an idea of even what kind of medium you'd use or what your approach is, maybe then looking up any kind of artists that might align with that, that might make sense to reach out to. Because I don't know if you want to do poetry, or you want to paint, or you want to do a video, or a dance, or a song. I think there's so many ways to express this through art. 

Hailey: Yeah, I'm a visual artist myself, but-

Interviewee: Okay, wonderful. 

Hailey: My style would be suitable, and I want to make sure I represent it in the best way possible. 

Interviewee: I think anything that you feel inspired to do and that comes from the art would probably be really cool. So I also don't think you need to be worried about whether it's suitable or not, because it's also your interpretation of how this goes. I think one part of academia that you'll come to learn is that all we can do is try to collect as much information as possible and make decisions based on that, and come up with our own conclusions about things. And oftentimes, it's not the full picture, right? So to allow yourself also to create art knowing that that's your interpretation of what you've heard and how you feel in that process, right? So don't feel limited by it.

Hailey: Thank you, yeah.

Interviewee: I'm looking forward to seeing what you create. Sure, I hope it works out, yeah. I'm sure it'll be wonderful. 

Hailey: Thank you, thank you so much again, yeah. Take care, bye. Bye, keep in touch.