Hailey: all right I am excited. So before I ask  my interview questions could you give  a brief overview of  what you do and your role  at UBC?

Interviewee: <<>> (Anonymized as the information shared is easily identifiable to one individual)

Hailey: Yeah I feel  in  medicine it's not as much when we're teaching health in schools   there's not as much education about  the cultural context around it  and  the different people you would be serving so I think  all of that is something that I hope to see more   when I go to university for example. Okay  then kind of  leading into the questions  basically how do you integrate cultural practices  and traditions into your work and healing?

Interviewee: that's a good question it's it's  when I first started three years ago I was of the opinion that the despite the faculty's commitments and the faculty's uh short long-term objectives to figure out their commitments to Tristan Reconciliation and their generally their relationship with Indigenous peoples I was of the opinion that the conversation hasn't even begun between those people who are from here and those people who arrived here as either colonial or new settlers. I grew up in a small community on the west coast of Vancouver Island and I was fortunate enough to be around my paternal great grandmother and I was always I was always around my great grandmother when I was a kid. I was always buzzing around her in some way I was always with my great grandmother and I really loved my great grandmother her name was <<>>, <<>> was her maiden name and she she made a point to never speak English to me when I was around her she always spoke in her language so I got to be I got I was lucky to be around her because she was such a a force of   just love and affection but also the balance of strength of identity and purpose who she had a lot of confidence about who she was and I remember when I was a kid when there was a stranger in our communities or a stranger in our community she would always ask people you know who are you I don't recognize you who are you and you know the person would go. oh I'm <<replaced>> and she'd kind of roll her eyes and go well who are you and you know some thinking she was a little bit deaf they raised their voice oh I'm <<replaced>> and she'd keep asking well who are you until the person would say oh I'm <<replaced>> my mom is my dad is but he's actually from my mother's from my grandparents and until she formed an image in her mind about not only who this person was but who they're connected to and that conversation would often lead into her kitchen she'd often feed people and in many instances she would then say well this is who I am and this is how I'm related to you so we don't really know each other until we ask the question who are you and where are you from there were some people that kind of just looked at her you know in a weird kind of way and kept walking ignored her and she would say she would she would say to me don't don't be like that don't be rude when you go when you're when you're somewhere you tell people who you are so you know I think if you I thought to think of that experience in today's context that if you're trying to get at the truth of things if you're trying to get at the reconciliation of things there's there's an implication that reconciliation that at one point in our history between indigenous peoples and non-indigenous peoples that it was once a thriving healthy relationship there wasn't and where they did exist at the point of contact they were far and few between so how do you how do you reconcile a relationship that mostly didn't exist between Kuala Lumpur settlers and our people so you want to be starting at conciliation it's the forming of a thriving healthy relationship as opposed to trying to get at a relationship that largely never existed so when I started I was the opinion that the conversation between those who are from here and those who arrived here hasn't even begun so it was important for me to find ways to think about how we not only begin those important sometimes difficult conversations but how how do we bring some of us into that conversation because in in my work here and other and elsewhere I often talk about Canada's colonial history for about 59 minutes and get to talk about my culture for about a minute so there needs to be a a delineate an effort to delineate what is Canada's history and what's what's my history what are First Nations people's histories and when we talk about culture and customs and ceremonies and traditions well what does that mean do we even know what that means beyond the what we see behind the glass and in the museum of anthropology or in national museum in Ottawa it's it's material culture that we often don't question or we don't know how to relate to or interact with and so there's there's this there's this there's this still existing tension between  what we're trying to reach in terms of truth and reconciliation so in my job I make I make it a deliberate effort to bring some some of that culture and ceremony some of the language into the conversation and to provide a bit of context and explanation as to the purpose of those customs or ceremonies so that there's some kind of effort to not only inform people about who we are where we're from but there's sort of an equal measure to demystify some of who we are and where we're from and I think it also is important for non-Indigenous folks colonial or new sellers to also think about who they are and where they're from there was there's a wonderful program that was on CNN called Parts Unknown and it was hosted by the late chef Anthony Bourne and in the last season the first episode of the last season he went to Kenya and in Africa and he took a fellow named W. Kamu Bell who's African American and his has roots in Kenya his parents came from Kenya to to America so they went to Kenya and they're having this interesting trip eating food meeting people and Anthony Bourdain asks W. Kamu Bell you know this what does it feel like being home back in the motherland what does it feel like being back in the motherland and Kamu Bell said something pretty interesting he said something like  well you know it's it's home like I get it I was born in America I'm America I consider America my home but I'm also from here but it's funny because Kenya is also a colonial British construct born on colonialism so to say I'm from Kenya is to say I'm part of that colonial construct so you need to dig back deeper into who you are and where you're from and I think that's what often Canadians at least by experience many Canadians begin and end the conversation with that well I was born in Vancouver I'm Canadian yeah but aren't you Japanese well yeah you know my grandparents came from Japan but I'm Canadian yeah but you're Japanese you come from Japan to say you're from here is to say that you're part of the colonial construct called British Columbia you're part of a colonial municipality called Vancouver the very name Vancouver was named after a British expeditionary captain called Vancouver so there's a real need to not only figure out what our culture is and how to bring it into the conversation there's a real need for Canadian non-indigenous folks to bring their own culture into the conversation because whether you like it or not admit it or not come to terms with it or not that nastiness that we call oppression assimilation and racism against Indian people is a part of your history and I think what church and reconciliation is trying to get at is an effort to to rewrite a new history so you know if we transport ourselves off into the future by 100 years we get to our people for spacious people we get to write history you know 100 years from now what are we going to write you know 100 years from now we can we we can potentially write yeah we tried church and reconciliation most Canadians didn't give a shit most Canadians stayed racist towards our people uh most Canadians choose to ignore and remain ignorant towards church and reconciliation because if that's what's taking place then that's what we're going to write and then that that becomes a part of the broader Canadian culture and history that that make up the uniqueness of of this country and province that we call BC and Canada so you know I think it's important to to not only bring our a sense of identity and geography and purpose into the conversation but it's it's important to bring into that space the uniqueness of the culture that makes not only you uniquely Canadian but uniquely where your ancestors come ancestors come from and uh have a an opportunity to do what we should have done you know 150 or so years ago in an effort to get to know one another and by that we can really truly and uniquely breathe life into the purpose of church and reconciliation 

Hailey: I think  a lot of people kind of also  lost touch with  their heritage just a little bit   whether it's  geographic distance or   there's just not  living members in your family that speak the language or write the language or  have those stories  so  I know a lot of people at my school  they don't really  know where they came from that well or   they'll find out through  a genetic test or something  so I think  yeah that's a shame  I'm  yeah I think knowing  your own culture and then also  the adopted culture and because Canada is  it's kind of  they call it  a melting pot  there's so many cultures there  yeah so I don't think saying  I'm Canadian there's not a single  Canadian culture to say you are

Hailey: okay in the spirit of what we were talking about are there any  particular initiatives that you have going on right now? maybe starting those conversations?

Interviewee: yep I'm just going to bring it up so in September 30th 2021 was the  the very first formal national day for truth and reconciliation the government announced it and that just earlier that spring of 2021 is when the  the Kamloops Indian Band announced the  potential 215 grave sites at the former Kamloops Indian Residential School so in in honor of the first national day for truth reconciliation on September 30th of that year the chief uh Roslyn Cassidy invited the prime minister to be a part of a  a memorial and solemn ceremony to honor the memory of the 215 children at those grave sites and of course the  was all over the news the prime minister didn't show up despite the formal invite to do so and was in fact on holidays in Tofino during the very first national day for truth and reconciliation and it was it was all over the news but there were a lot of people at UBC asking me hey what do you think about the prime minister skipping on the first national day for truth and reconciliation and I thought well who cares what I think I want to know what chief Casimir thinks I want to know what chief Wayne Christian thinks who was also part of that ceremony so I called him up and asked if they would be willing to be a part of like this a virtual conversation about well what do you think about the prime minister not showing up and what do you think about the broader reach of truth and reconciliation kind of thing so we arranged that conversation for November of 2021 and it was over zoom it was about 90 minutes and chief Casimir was supposed to show up but she didn't because it was flooding in her region at the time but chief Wayne Christian did show up and it's an it's an amazing conversation all of the recordings are part of that indigenous indigenous speaker series but I thought naively thought oh you know we'll get maybe a dozen maybe a couple dozen people show up kind of thing and we learned afterwards that there were close to 400 people as part of that and sustained 400 people during the 90 minute conversation so I spoke with Rosalind Goldner the executive director of the ready office at the time and I said you know I think we're onto something here I think we need to likely create some regular series and invite people who've been working in health and related services and ask them a set of questions about you know generally about truth and reconciliation so we started the indigenous speaker series and we've been running it during the academic year in 2022 2023 and it's again set to go for this academic year 2024 2025 but we average about 250 people per speaker it's one of the most successful speaker series around indigenous peoples people working in health or related services and in the broader reach of truth and reconciliation and they're they've also had we've we also do a lot of the tracking like who registers and what their roles are where they work and even what country that they're zooming in from so we've now had in this last series had an international reach from people in Australia New Zealand the United States zooming in to watch the series but so it's been quite successful it's been a it's been a feature on a lot of media within the Faculty of Medicine at UBC Central we had quite a few thousand people participate even greater numbers watch the recordings and get a lot of follow-up on people who have like an intense interest in research or something else.

Hailey: I want to sort of further the conversation so to speak so that's one aspect of what we developed in the context of truth and reconciliation it's been a key initiative in the work that we do I would say exactly I guess that kind of addresses my second question so I'll just kind of answer the next one  how do you collaborate with other organizations or agencies to provide  holistic care  do you maybe work with hospitals or physicians individually  that sort of thing?

Interviewee: yeah I do quite a bit of work with because the UBC Faculty of Medicine does have a formal arrangement with each of the regional health authorities so Northern Health Interior Fraser Vancouver Coastal and Island Health as well as the Provincial Health Services Authority and other associated  organizations doctors at bc places like that but I do quite a bit of work and continue to do quite a bit of work with  with the each of the regional health authorities so many of the doctors in any specialized field whether it's occupational therapy  geriatology any of the associated specialized medical fields are doing some kind of work or related work with uh in terms of cultural safety and utility or truth and reconciliation or both or both so I'm often either called like this it's a one-off people have some set of specific questions so they need advice or guidance or something of that effect or I'm asked to come in and participate on some kind of committee  in relation to all things indigenous or indigenous health or cultural safety or something like that so that's that's more my focus  i know that we the regional each of the regional health authorities are doing something around cultural safety and utility and then specialized units will often take whatever the regional health authorities or hospitals are developing and then make it specific to their certain interests or certain specialization or certain focus that informs how they're engaging with indigenous.

Hailey: thank you and what community resources are available for  perhaps those  affected by trauma in the health care system for example because my topic of interest for what i'm doing interviews for is trauma informed health care  culturally sensitive health care and  how that's being implemented so what resources are out there?

Interviewee: there's quite a bit out there now two years ago now the the first nation's health authority and health standards organization so the health standards organization is affiliated with the national organization called accreditation candidate so the health standards organization and the first nation's health authority partnered to develop a bc first nation's standard on cultural safety and humility and that standard was distributed widely across the province within each of the regional health authorities PHSA other organizations agency so on and so forth and that standard was used to inform organizational specific work around cultural safety and humility so by now each of the regional health authorities as an example has some kind of work or department or even team of people uh doing work specifically on cultural safety and humility providence health is a pretty good program a set of standards on cultural safety really island health is doing excellent work on cultural safety and humility there's our own internal process of cultural safety and humility safety and humility called UBC 2324 I'm just reading it out and so it's it's a internal faculty of medicine indigenous cultural safety humility program here at UBC so each of the everybody any student that comes into the faculty of medicine in any program the mp program or any other health related program are obligated or mandated to to take this program as part of their their academic journey and so  you can also you can throw a rock in here and hit some kind of contractor that's doing work around cultural safety and humility as well in the province uh they asked me a couple years ago and i should develop something specific around cultural safety and i said well let's just wait there's a lot of people doing doing work around it and i think a couple years from now we can get some we can just borrow what it's already been developed out there so you could google indigenous cultural safety and humility and a few million a few million hits will come up around it so there there are a lot of resources that you can assign yourself to the very i think the very first one in the province was a program called sannyas s-a-n-y-a-s and it was developed around cultural safety and humility but if you want to look at those the international reach in the context of cultural safety really it really comes from the Maori in New Zealand and the first nations in Australia New Zealand have really picked up on cultural safety and humility in that regard so you can find a lot of good resources in those countries as well.

Hailey: yeah i didn't actually think about it from an international perspective maybe i should  check out.

Interviewee: yeah yeah the Maori in New Zealand they're really really smart and intuitive they they started they literally started the whole cultural safety and humility initiative.

Hailey: okay  what obstacles do you think  indigenous community or just individuals in general do they face  in getting access to health care or getting access to good health care at least  and  you know culturally safe?

Interviewee: okay yeah i think from a couple of perspectives around challenges and obstacles the first the first is  the first again has nothing or little to do with indigenous peoples right I think there's a funny tension there because many people don't realize or they have to be reminded that we're Canadian too first nations in this province are Canadians we're British Colombians too we have fixed Canadian addresses we carry Canadian passports we pay taxes we have a bc healthcare card a bc driver's license we shop at the same grocery stores as you do we look and sound Canadian we like to have the odd Tim Hortons coffee and donut every now and then  we're we're we're Canadian too and there's a a misconception generally held in Canadian society that first nations folks get a free ride we get a lot of things for free we don't so as an example when when we use our bc healthcare card to access emergency services or hospital related services or even if we're going to see your doctor or pharmacist  those services are paid for by federal transfer dollars so we don't get them free we pay for that service like everybody else so I think there's uh there's a real need for for health systems and health federal and provincial health policy to really live up to their principle so there's there's an overarching principle in the Canada health act and there's that same principle exists in the bc healthcare act and it's the principle is accessibility and that principle is defined that all Canadians are afforded the right to access health services free of racism and discrimination  yet we continue to face all kinds of racism and discrimination within those very health systems so there's a real need to figure out well this has nothing to do with cultural safety and humility has everything to do with the principle that upholds Canada health act and the bc health act and it's called accessibility so if you carry a bc health care card or an Alberta health care card or any of the provincial territorial health care cards you have the right to access health services free of racism and discrimination whether you're Chinese indigenous Japanese or anybody else but there's a lot of evidence that shows that racism still largely exists within health systems against indigenous peoples so there's a there's a perspective there has nothing to do with us and has everything to do with people within the health care system because those people they sign bureaucratic oaths they are legally and legislating legislatively obligated provide a service free of racism discrimination it's in our letter of offers all kinds of mechanisms in place so there's a real need to question well why why is that still happening why are we still perpetuating racism and hate against indigenous people and we saw that evidence through Covid 19 against Chinese people against Asian people generally in this city and its problems because we the the issue is racialized right so there's a there's a need for systems to figure out that their own principles around accessibility and providing health related services to people who carry a health care card now the other perspective is the  broader context of truth and reconciliation and the calls to action so going back to June 11 2008 is when the formal apology to survivors of the Indian residential school was made in the house of commons by prime minister Steven Harper and uh so in the house of commons you have the official party and then on the opposite side of the house you have the opposition right now it's the liberals are the official party in coalition with the new democrats and then the conservatives have a small contingency within house so you have the two sides the official part of the opposition is speaker of the house governor general and then right in the middle of the house of commons between the two parties there's a strip of green carpet that green space is only intended for the queen only the queen is allowed or i guess the king now is allowed to walk there no one else is it's considered a sanctified sacred space so when the formal apology was made in 2008 there was a group of survivors of the Indian residential school experience where they seated on the green space which is very symbolic in terms of the apology because the only person higher than the queen is god so the fact that they were seated there was a profound act of apology on behalf of this country because it means that the queen herself said and gave permission for those survivors to be seated there there's only been one other person in Canadian history whoever sat in that space and the first was Nelson Mandela. Nelson Mandela was made an honorary Canadian citizen and when he was they seated him in that green space and that was the common so no other person ever in Canada's history has ever been seated in that space only the queen so when the formal apology was made many Canadians don't realize that beyond the apology the apology made legal and legislative commitments to create the truth and reconciliation commission so there's a there's a rich context there that a lot of Canadians don't either don't know and remain ignorant about or when they do know they don't explore or research it any further but when the calls to action were announced in 2015 the commissioner said very clearly about the findings of the truth and reconciliation commission the recommendations around the Indian residential school experience in Canada the segregation of Indians the Indian reserves the potlatch ban Indians not having the right to vote the Indian act so on and so forth all of it they said very clearly it's not an aboriginal problem it's a Canadian problem so there's there's a real urgency there in that perspective and in answer to your question right that this work is intended for non-indigenous folks it isn't intended for indigenous people so the work reconciliation is your job it's your parents job it's your friend's job it's the people in your life so I think there's there's a real need from institutional systematic local regional efforts and all kinds of systems but in everyday Canadian society I think there's a need for people in those systems to really figure out well what's what's my role in truth and reconciliation what's my role within this system and how do I begin coming to terms with my own sensibilities about how first nations people in the strongholds and what's my part of it and what can I do about it.

Hailey: yeah. how do you involve  perhaps  indigenous elders or knowledge keepers or   individuals a lot of experience in your programs or do you  is that a part of   what you do in your work?

Interviewee: no not me specifically but there are there are different programs and faculties and departments that are that do something like that where they bring elders and knowledge keepers into the mix it's something I don't do typically no.

Hailey: okay. when you mentioned  the issue of  racism and how  society kind of   hasn't really made a push or hasn't taken the steps to  educate themselves do you think that's  a policy issue or  a systemic issue or is it   individual people  aren't you know taking the measures or  I don't know combinations?

Interviewee: yeah I think from again if you look at it from different points of view I think that's a really good question so if you're looking at it from like a medical doctor perspective like a health professional perspective  it's although it's good it's it's useful to some degree that each of the regional health authorities and hospitals are developing standards of cultural safety and humility.

Hailey: I get it that's good they're good exercises they they at least bring people together to have meaningful conversations around those types of issues but I'm interested in I mentioned earlier the the effect of health legislation.

Interviewee: so health legislation informs what they call regulatory health legislation and it's that regulatory legislation that informs doctors nurses other health professionals around their clinical guidelines so there's a legislative set of guidelines that informs doctors about how they are supposed to engage with their patients I'm interested in well if you're going to put any meaning to cultural safety and humility there needs to be a deliberate effort to to revise or develop a new set of clinical guidelines about how doctors engage with indigents that are legislated clinical guidelines that inform doctors about how to best engage with indigenous patients because guess what most of the hospitals in Greater Vancouver most of the patients going into those hospitals are our people and so that's that's kind of one angle perspective point of view that I think needs and still hasn't been adequately addressed in in that regard right and which is directly related to legislation regulatory type processes that develop policy set of guidelines protocols processes in terms of how medical doctors carry out their their duties so there's all you can you can speak for quite some time about that perspective alone about well how are you how are we teaching which goes back then to curriculum so if you're doing that you need to create new curriculum at the start of students in their medical doctor academic journey so you're looking at seven to ten years those last three years are your residency so you're you know 10 to 12 years if you're specializing so you need to develop the balance of that those guidelines with curriculum and you need to be consistent and teach students throughout their medical doctor career not just at the beginning and not just at the end the other perspective is just is this stuff embedded in your question and that is just everyday people right I think it's just  that's the bigger challenge is how do we how do we get to people just every day and uh there's a wonderful quote by  I think he was a psychologist his name his name is Nathan Ramstein and he he said he made a quote he said something like  ignorance is an emotional commitment to prejudice and uh when I first heard it I was just a teenager when I heard it so I've lost I've always wondered what does that mean you're emotionally committed to something right so there's an obvious emotion that we all feel as human beings and it's love we we all fall in love and falling in love creates all kinds of other emotions like trust loyalty commitment respect fidelity so you know what does it mean  to be in love and to have those things but then to be unfaithful right what kind of emotions does infidelity create well it creates mistrust it creates anger it creates sadness disappointment hurt so you know one emotion one emotion is intricately in in a very complex way committed to other emotions so it's not to just say well I'm going to remain ignorant  I don't really care about first nations people I don't think about first nations people so there's there's indifference  there's a sense of privilege there you know that's not my problem that's their problem right so your ignorance if you remain ignorant is an emotional commitment because it's prejudice to say who cares what Indian people want who cares what Indian people think right and if you don't believe me ask Japanese people who came to this country and faced similar kinds of racism discrimination because they were simply Japanese or Chinese people or black people that came into this country Jewish people weren't allowed into this country during the second world war so there's all kinds of evidence of this country  that had some kind of hate racism and discrimination against people who weren't white and any kind of colonialism any kind of colonialism requires some kind of violence and the violence that was perpetrated against first nations and these people created that sense of privilege that sense of ignorance that we have a right to be here we have we can take anything we want and we don't have to ask permission so going back to our the start of our conversation is that w come out coming down curiosity right so if you can say you know I'm from BC. I was born in Smithers well that's true but the place that you were born that you call home has a colonial past Smithers moved a bunch of first nations people out there by force and they dispossessed them of their land so the very city that Smithers sits on was once belonged to first nations people and they were stolen dispossessed and they were segregated to an Indian reserve on the outside of the City of Smithers every municipality in bc has some kind of history like that so I think it's important for non-indigenous folks to really create a sense of curiosity you know and if it's not about our people fine but try and make it about yourself as well right we're we're all trying to exist in this country and in this province I think generally for our people we just want to be a part of the society without having to pay the price our ancestors paid to simply live in our own territory.

Hailey: yeah I'm part of  a club and  we kind of researched   injustices and  Canadian history so we've looked into  Japanese interment  the Chinese attack  and  a lot of different things and  it originated as a holocaust memorial club so we also looked into that and  it's just  really interesting to see how  history almost  repeats itself  and  the same tactics are used  dispossession where  versus property and land and then it's  and then they're  isolated and it's just  how media is used so I think that's  a really interesting point and it's  it's been part of our country's history  repeatedly and I think it's still happening  do you  know of or have you  witnessed any  individuals experiences   perhaps of  resilience or  interactions  with healthcare do you have any  stories   without naming us but  because I want to when I create my art I want to  have a narrative style kind of that I tell it because I think that'll be more compelling to  my school community?

Interviewee: yeah I think if you if you watch the  if you watch any of the speakers as part of the indigenous speaker series uh I've pulled out pulled out something amazing and resilient from every one of those speakers and  the the last person I talked to was in may of this year was president Nate and Oba and he's the president of the national Inuit organization in Ottawa  that was one of the most profound conversations I've ever had as part of their speaker series because he he displayed so much not only  awareness and depth of honesty but he was just utterly resilient and I thought well that's an amazing thing if we can get there how do we how do we attain that kind of resilience right not just for indigenous folks but for British Colombians Canadians generally I just think there's a real need to figure out well yeah you know you can you talk about these issues ad nauseum and you can likely like it's a song that never ends or it's a conversation that never ends but I think there's also a need to figure out well what makes us uniquely resilient what makes what makes us uniquely and profoundly aware of of our our growth and our potential for growth so I think by my personal experience it's it's knowing that you can either be caught up in history and all of its nastiness and let that weight down or you can let it go and you can flourish and you can be prosperous and you can be resilient uh in your own truth and breathing life into who you are and what that means to you and not be not let it be not be affected by someone else's prejudice or someone else's discrimination or someone else's ignorance but uh that you have the strength of awareness and confidence to be who you are and hold that up as something quite unique in this province in this country I think there's a lot of goodness in that and I think  if you can figure that out you or or your friends or your family or anyone around in your circle there's a lot of richness in that there's a lot of goodness in it and I think that's what attracts people to each other around this work is that ability to shine and to be confident and to be resilient so any one of those speakers displayed and then just an incredible profound expression of resilience and confidence in order to absolutely.

Hailey: sure I'll definitely check that up then when I'm creating a project. speaking about the art I plan to put together do you have any  suggestions or things you'd want  to see?  That we've talked about maybe because I'm still in  the planning stages so  I'm not sure what to include?

Interviewee: yeah do you mind uh do you mind if I answer I'll send you an email response to that question i just have to jump on to another meeting here? yeah I'll definitely send you some links to the response to to that question specifically.

Hailey: for sure yeah thank you so much for doing this I think  lost track of time  it's really informative  and yeah I just really appreciate it.

Interviewee: if you want to if you want to follow up meaning just let me know I'm happy to happy to help.

Hailey: okay yeah thank you so much have a great day stay cool bye